Legislature(1999 - 2000)
03/22/1999 03:20 PM Senate RES
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
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+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
SENATE RESOURCES COMMITTEE
March 22, 1999
3:20 P.M.
MEMBERS PRESENT
Senator Rick Halford, Chairman
Senator Robin Taylor, Vice Chairman
Senator Pete Kelly
Senator Jerry Mackie
Senator Lyda Green
Senator Sean Parnell
MEMBERS ABSENT
Senator Georgianna Lincoln
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
SENATE JOINT RESOLUTION NO. 17
Requesting that the National Marine Fisheries Service and the
United States Congress act immediately to reverse the decline of
the Cook Inlet beluga whale population and to regulate the harvest
of the beluga whales in Cook Inlet until the beluga whale
population has recovered.
-MOVED CSSJR 17(RES) OUT OF COMMITTEE
SENATE BILL NO. 91
"An Act relating to enforcement of subsistence hunting and fishing
laws; and repealing the authority of the commissioner of fish and
game to assist in the enforcement of federal laws and regulations
pertaining to fish and game."
-HEARD AND HELD
SENATE JOINT RESOLUTION NO. 13
Relating to the membership of the Pacific Salmon Commission.
-HEARD AND HELD
PREVIOUS SENATE COMMITTEE ACTION
SJR 17 - No previous action to consider.
SB 91 - See Resources minutes dated 3/17/99.
SJR 13 - See Resources Committee minutes dated 3/17/99.
WITNESS REGISTER
Mr. Ron Somerville, Resource Consultant
House and Senate Majority
State Capitol Bldg.
Juneau, AK 99811-1182
POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on SJR 17.
Mr. Joel Blatchford
1983 Waldron Dr.
Anchorage, AK 99501
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SJR 17.
Mr. Daniel Alex, Project Coordinator
Cook Inlet Marine Mammal Council
P.O. Box 101846
Anchorage, AK 99507
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SJR 17.
Mr. Carl Jack
731 E 8th
Anchorage, AK 99520
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SJR 17.
Ms. Delice Calcote, Secretary
Cook Inlet Marine Mammal Council
205 E Dimond
Anchorage, AK 99520
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SJR 17.
Mr. Jev Lanman, Member
Cook Inlet Marine Mammal Council
P.O. Box 1105
Chickaloon, AK 99674
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SJR 17.
Mr. Lynn Levengood
1008 16th Ave.
Fairbanks, AK 99701
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SB 91.
Major Joe D'Amico, Deputy Director
Department of Public Safety
Division of Fish and Wildlife Protection
5700 Tudor Rd.
Anchorage, AK 99507-1225
POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on SB 91.
Myles Conway, Assistant Attorney General
Department of Law
1031 W 4th Ave. Ste 200
Anchorage, AK 99501-1994
POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on SB 91 and SJR 13.
Mr. Jev Shelton
1670 Evergreen Ave.
Juneau, AK 99801
POSITION STATEMENT: Opposed SJR 13.
ACTION NARRATIVE
TAPE 99-14, SIDE A
Number 001
SJR 17-COOK INLET BELUGA POPULATION
CHAIRMAN HALFORD called the Senate Resources Committee meeting to
order at 3:20 p.m. and announced SJR 17 to be up for consideration.
SENATOR TAYLOR moved to adopt the Committee Substitute, dated
3/19/99, Utermohle. There were no objections and it was so
ordered.
MR. RON SOMERVILLE, Resources Consultant to the House and Senate
Majority, says it's pretty obvious that the National Marine
Fisheries Service and other groups have felt that the Beluga whale
in Cook Inlet has been under pressure for some time and what is
causing the decline is speculative at this point. By and large the
trend has been down and the harvest has gone up. In 1994, the
Beluga population was estimated to be about 650 and it's now about
less than 350.
CHAIRMAN HALFORD asked what the accuracy was on the harvest data.
MR. SOMERVILLE answered that the harvest data was provided by the
National Marine Fisheries Service (NMFS) and all of the harvest is
taken by native Alaskans. NMFS cannot regulate the taking by
natives on any of the species unless there is some wasteful taking
or if the species is depleted. Working with local hunters and
shops in Anchorage, one in particular that sells beluga meat, they
have been able to estimate the take. He also worked with the local
Cook Inlet Marine Mammal Council.
In the last five years they have estimated that somewhere between
70 - 100 animals have been taken per year.
CHAIRMAN HALFORD asked about strikes versus taking.
MR. SOMERVILLE replied that "strike" information is not very
accurate, but a 1996 Cook Inlet Marine Mammal Council estimated
hunters landed 49 whales and estimated a total mortality of about
147 whales from hunters alone. NMFS and ADF&G didn't think that
mortality is that great for most years.
CHAIRMAN HALFORD asked how the whales are taken.
MR. SOMERVILLE replied that they are harpooned and some are shot
before they are harpooned. He said that proposed regulations from
NMFS probably will require that harpooning occur first to improve
the wounding losses. The main thing he wanted to stress is that
there was a petition from a number of organizations to list beluga
on the Endangered Species Act and if there's anything we want to
avoid it's that listing. This resolution asks NMFS to speed up the
process of the status review to determine exactly what the
population of the Cook Inlet beluga whales is and asks congress to
appropriate money for this project. It also asks for a
congressional "fix" from the Marine Mammal Protection Act allowing
NMFS to regulate and enforce.
He said there has been an agreement worked out between the local
council representing most of the tribes in Cook Inlet and the
National Marine Fisheries Service on some sort of plan. A proposed
amendment they are working on with Senator Stevens, which has been
added to the supplemental appropriation, will make it illegal to
take beluga in Cook Inlet unless it's under a regulated regime.
MR. JOEL BLATCHFORD supported SJR 17, but added that he has
witnessed commercial fishermen shooting beluga whales and he
personally had sunk four of them since 1955. He explained when a
beluga gets old, their livers hold a lot of pollutants. So when
they go into their winter season and their fat gets thin, the
livers put out a lot of toxic waste. They start breaking out with
tumors and are just too sick to eat. Their whole skin changes
colors. When they are young, they are very clean. He noted that
EPA has allowed discharging in coastal waters.
MR. BLATCHFORD also informed the committee that the grey whales
from California get very hungry on their migrations because they
keep getting pushed away from their source of food by people other
than hunters.
Number 180
MR. DANIEL ALEX, Project Coordinator for Cook Inlet Marine Mammal
Council, along with the Alaska Beluga Whale Committee asked for the
emergency amendment of MMPA which has been introduced as a rider on
an appropriation bill by Senator Stevens. They have also asked for
funding for co-management. They are concluding an interim co-
management agreement with the National Marine Fisheries Service by
April 1. They have recently reached a consensus that Cook Inlet
Marine Mammal Council is the negotiating entity and have worked out
some of the major points for an interim co-management agreement.
They have a set of conservation measures proposed by hunters that
are in the proposed interim draft co-management agreement.
MR. CARL JACK said he provides staff support to the Indigenous
People's Council for Marine Mammals, a coalition of 14 native
marine mammal councils that function in the State of Alaska. They
support SJR 17, but request on line 17 insert language supporting
Senator Stevens amendment #87 which was made on March 18, 1999. It
would amend the Marine Mammal Protection Act to put a moratorium on
the taking of belugas in Cook Inlet unless it's done through the
co-management regime that Mr. Alex talked about.
CHAIRMAN HALFORD informed Mr. Jack that the committee substitute
more directly supports the Stevens language.
Number 139
MS. DELICE CALCOTE, Secretary, Cook Inlet Marine Mammal Council,
supported SJR 17. However, she didn't think it was fair to blame
the hunters on the numbers dwindling. NMFS data shows that they
have only looked at tracer elements of biopollution in belugas and
they have only looked at a few samples. Their hunters have been
cutting up and sinking all of the belugas that are diseased with
pus pockets. All samples that NMFS samples have been taken from
marketable beluga. Fishermen have not provided any kind of bad
samples to the NMFS. This is why the Cook Inlet belugas are the
healthiest in the whole world. She asked for much more research
and noted the problems that come from pollution, including metals,
that come from the 230 plus operating wells in the Inlet. There
are tankers that come up and dump their ballast treatment waters in
the Kenai area. Plants in the Kenai are producing toxins that
could be getting into the water source. She also said the tourist
industry will bring further stresses on the area.
MS. CALCOTE suggested establishing a five-mile no bothering zone
around fishing and birthing areas much like the Canadians have just
adopted on their beluga grounds. One day when she was fishing, she
heard on the radio a man announce that he was shooting at belugas
because they were bothering his nets. So the commercial fishing
industry is not necessarily policing themselves as they say they
are.
She said there is sewage coming from Anchorage, Kenai, Ninilchik,
Homer, and Elmendorf and Fort Richardson. According to EPA, there
are billions of tons of toxins produced by the oil and gas industry
per year that are being pumped into the Inlet. All of those
pollutants settle into the mud. The beluga shrug out of their skin
every year and they use the mud to take off their old skin. She
asked if there would be dredging in the area where the beluga are
known for their feeding and birthing areas. She repeated that
protection for feeding and birthing zones needed to be established.
There is a potential for gold mines coming in and she wanted the
gold production runoff to be monitored. The beluga like to stay at
the mouths of the streams for their food source. The Johnson River
and the Beluga River are known beluga feeding areas, but she
concluded saying that the whole area needed to be looked at and not
just one small piece at a time.
Number 310
MR. JEV LANMAN, Chickaloon Village, said he is a member of the Cook
Inlet Marine Mammal Council and representative of the Cook Inlet
Treaty Tribes. He supported SJR 17 saying that his views have been
voiced already. He said that getting accurate information about
the numbers needed to have attention. Hunters don't have total
control over this limited resource. The number of whales that are
struck and destroyed because of pollution hasn't been recorded and
it's not reflected in the scientific reports people are receiving
today. He noted interference from tourist boats, oil wells, and
many other industries are impacting what's going on.
MR. LANKAN said that toxins in belugas have recently been evidenced
by the yellow tumors and radioactive content. It has reached a
state where you are taking a big risk if you eat the meat without
having it tested first.
SENATOR TAYLOR asked if the Council has records of how many belugas
are being taken and being shot.
MR. LANMAN answered that the numbers vary from hunter to hunter and
locations. He said they have totals, but they are not good numbers
which is why he is testifying on behalf of this bill.
CHAIRMAN HALFORD said one question has come up and they know the
harvest has increased substantially, but they don't know that is
the only reason or even a major reason for the decline. The way
the resolution is drafted it says, "primarily due to overharvest".
It also says, "appears to have declined". It might be more neutral
to say "appears to have declined in recent years while harvest
levels have increased significantly". Both of those things are
true.
SENATOR TAYLOR moved to adopt that language. There were no
objections and the amendment was adopted.
SENATOR TAYLOR asked what the feds have said is the base line
population of belugas in Cook Inlet. He asked how long they had
been managing them.
CHAIRMAN HALFORD answered they had been managing them since 1972.
MR. SOMERVILLE inserted after the Marine Mammal Protection Act was
last amended it was required that NMFS U.S. Fish and Wildlife
Service do population assessment and establish base line population
levels for all the species they are responsible for. For belugas in
Cook Inlet, their number was around 750 - 800, but it was
established in those days as an off the top guess based upon
surveys incidental to other work the State was doing in Cook Inlet
as well as the University of Alaska.
SENATOR TAYLOR asked if that wasn't the same thing we are working
with today.
MR. SOMERVILLE repeated that the data is skimpy at best, but the
problem is under the Endangered Species Act the courts look at the
"best available information." Many species like the wolf and
goshawk can be listed on very skimpy information.
SENATOR MACKIE moved to pass CSSJR 17(RES) from committee with
individual recommendations. There were no objections and it was so
ordered.
SB 91-ENFORCEMENT OF SUBSISTENCE LAWS
CHAIRMAN HALFORD announced SB 91 to be up for consideration.
MS. MEL KROGSENG, Aide to Senator Taylor, sponsor, said SB 91
basically prohibits any member of our Department of Public Safety
or other state employee or a member of a police department of a
local municipality from enforcing any federal statute or regulation
that is inconsistent with out State Constitution or the
Constitution of the United States. It also prohibits federal
agents from the same thing. Another section of the bill repeals
the authority of the Commissioner of ADF&G from engaging in
agreements with federal law enforcement officers who are enforcing
laws pertaining to subsistence eligibility. Basically, she said,
we are not going to help them enforce laws that are in violation of
our constitution.
MR. LYNN LEVENGOOD, said he is an attorney in Fairbanks and
supported SB 91 for a number of reasons. He said, "There is a
train wreck scheduled and it's between the sovereignty of the State
of Alaska and the intrusions of the federal government into the
sovereignty of the State of Alaska." He said it's happening
rapidly. Last year, the federal Subsistence Board declared sheep
hunting areas where ADF&G had issued permits were open to federal
hunting only. This year, the Glacier Bay issue is coming to the
forefront. The federal government has kicked out our long-standing
fishermen and the sovereignty of the State of Alaska through the
Submerged Lands Act.
MR. LEVENGOOD said that AS 16.05.050 (a)1 requires the Commissioner
of ADF&G to cooperate with the federal government, he didn't think
there was federal reciprocity to cooperate with the State of
Alaska. This bill is necessary to repeal that requirement and to
prevent unfunded federal mandates. The Legislature should do
everything they can to prevent Alaskan's sovereignty from being
encroached upon and the federal government from violating the
constitutional rights of Alaskan citizens.
He thought the idea that federal and state law enforcement agencies
being so dependent upon each other for each other's safety was a
ruse. Clearly, this legislation doesn't prohibit cooperation; just
cooperating on federal regulations or laws that are in dispute.
MR. MYLES CONWAY, Assistant Attorney General, pointed out that
Section (c) of SB 91 would be unenforceable. It makes it illegal
for federal officials to enforce federal laws or regulations that
are inconsistent with the State's constitution. To prosecute
federal officials for enforcing their own laws would be dismissed
from the court with the supremacy clause of the U.S. Constitution.
In addition, we would be subjecting our state officers to potential
federal criminal liability. There is a federal statute making it
illegal to interfere with federal officials performing their
duties.
MS. KROGSENG responded that she had discussed this with Mr.
Levengood and even if this is unenforceable, it would put the
State's position on the table. We don't want the federal
government enforcing laws that are inconsistent with our
Constitution or the U.S. Constitution. Other lower 48 states have
put laws on the books recently about the federal government
purchasing land, because they don't want additional land being
bought by the federal government, although they realize they may
not be able to enforce it. The intent is to make a policy call.
MR. LEVENGOOD responded that he didn't disagree, but there are
certain requirements in some of the federal agencies that say some
of their regulations can only be carried out and enforced if there
is cooperation with the state and local governments. This would be
one regulation we are objecting to.
Number 569
MAJOR JOE D'AMICO, Department of Public Safety, testified his
biggest concern regarding SB 91, also stated in a letter to the
committee, is the unintended effect that Alaskan troopers will lose
some degree of safety, mostly for rural troopers, if it is passed.
He explained that most of our cross-deputization agreements are
reciprocal in nature. There is no current law now that requires us
to assist federal officers. In fact, in Glacier Bay we refused.
It's a policy that they will not enforce federal fishing laws or
assist the Park Service in that area. In rural areas, however, in
many instances the closest help is a federal officer.
SENATOR MACKIE asked if we had ever used any of our vessels to
"ferry around" Park Service Rangers or anything in Glacier Bay or
anywhere else.
TAPE 99-14, SIDE B
Number 590
His understanding was equipment was used in Glacier Bay only for
our troopers who were enforcing our own fish and wildlife laws.
MAJOR D'AMICO replied that he researched that issue using written
records dating back to 1986 and they had never carted federal
agents around in Glacier Bay. The Department has enforced state
laws for commercial fisheries in Glacier Bay. They have ridden in
Park Service vehicles for the Gustavus area state moose hunt which
does not occur on Park land. That's because they don't have state
vehicle available in Gustavus and it was convenient. They have
also moored state boats free of charge at the Park Service dock in
Glacier Bay in conjunction with state fisheries efforts.
SENATOR PARNELL asked if he currently helped enforce federal
statutes and regulations governing hunting and fishing.
MAJOR D'AMICO said he has tried to figure out what that really
means. He said the example in his letter with the brown bear and
swans actually happened to one of his troopers and in that case
they did directly assist a federal officer with a violation. A
trooper in Haines recently investigated the shooting of a bald
eagle. There are occasions where state troopers assist federal
officers.
SENATOR PARNELL asked if the swan example was unintended.
MAJOR D'AMICO said that is correct. The trooper was working on the
spring brown enforcement season, a state hunt, and they saw a
hunter with bear and checked it. When they unrolled it to seal it,
they found the swans.
SENATOR PARNELL said he didn't see how he was tying a prohibition
against direct enforcement of a federal subsistence hunting or
fishing statute with trooper safety being put at risk.
MAJOR D'AMICO said he could as in the case of the swans. In the
case of the swans, he wondered if the trooper would be in violation
of Section (a) in the direct assistance to the federal officer by
providing the transportation. He said he didn't know exactly what
"direct assistance" means. He explained that they have a good
relationship with most of the federal agencies to provide
reciprocal assistance and in many cases when the request is made,
the officer doesn't know that there's going to be a problem, but
they are concerned one will occur. The state receives the ratio of
8 or 9 to one assistances from the federal agencies in terms of
personnel and equipment. The state is on the winning end when that
occurs.
Number 532
SENATOR TAYLOR asked if there was any assurance that Major D'Amico
wouldn't provide backup to a federal agent in Glacier Bay.
MAJOR D'AMICO replied if they were requested to backup a federal
officer enforcing a federal law in Glacier Bay, they would probably
do it to prevent some type of problem.
SENATOR TAYLOR said he wasn't concerned about what happened in the
past. He was concerned about the "pickle" they would find
themselves in if there is something going on in Glacier Bay and
they ask for assistance. He said they would be enforcing something
that is very unconstitutional and we are going to file suit over.
MAJOR D'AMICO said they would want a trooper to prevent violence.
He was not just concerned about the federal officer, but the
Alaskan citizen that they are going to contact.
SENATOR TAYLOR asked if he thought the Alaskan would think he was
there to protect him and his sovereign rights as a citizen when he
walks up shoulder to shoulder with a federal officer to place him
under arrest.
MAJOR D'AMICO said he didn't know the answer to that. Whenever he
has assisted federal officers, they have been glad to have him.
SENATOR TAYLOR said whoever was with the swans inside the bear hide
had to make a decision about what the limit was for swans taken by
a qualified federal subsistence user and asked if there was a limit
at the time if you were a subsistence user.
MAJOR D'AMICO answered that he was not current on all federal law,
although he knows they allow some take of swans in the spring.
SENATOR TAYLOR said it wouldn't have been his problem, because they
are both violations of federal law. He asked what the trooper did
with the guys with the swans.
MAJOR D'AMICO said that the trooper didn't do anything, that the
federal officer handled it.
SENATOR TAYLOR asked if the defendant lived in the right community.
MAJOR D'AMICO replied that he did.
SENATOR TAYLOR asked if we have a law against shooting swans in
Alaska.
MAJOR D'AMICO answered that there are some state sanctioned swan
hunts in Alaska. They are in game management units and have
seasons and bag limits and firearms restrictions.
SENATOR TAYLOR asked if the state officer was aware of that.
MAJOR D'AMICO answered yes.
SENATOR TAYLOR asked why he didn't arrest the man for shooting six
swans.
MAJOR D'AMICO answered it was a federal problem and we generally
don't do federal enforcement.
SENATOR TAYLOR noted that we have Alaskan laws about killing swans
and asked if that wasn't an Alaskan problem if our officer caught
a man with six dead swans.
MAJOR D'AMICO said the federal government manages and enforces most
waterfowl cases.
SENATOR TAYLOR asked if his officers would not arrest him if he
were in violation of a bag limit on swans.
MAJOR D'AMICO said they would if they were shot in the spring.
SENATOR TAYLOR said shooting in the spring was even worse since
there is no season that time of the year.
MAJOR D'AMICO responded that he wasn't sure he understood the
point, but if he were out there during a season and was over limit,
he would be cited by a trooper. If he did it in the spring, they
would most likely turn it over to the federal government.
CHAIRMAN HALFORD thanked Major D'Amico for writing his long
detailed letter and asked about an item on the second page saying
a standing order is currently in place prohibiting our employees
from using equipment for transporting Park Rangers or to assist
federal officers in their attempts to enforce federal fishery laws
in the Glacier Bay area. He said if Major D'Amico can make a
policy like that work, it would seem that he could come up with a
policy using the same methodology that would keep the state out of
enforcing laws that are unconstitutional. He could see the reality
with regards to personal safety and federal criminal law. He
thought there was a way to work through that and produce a bill
that avoids those problems and actually does something.
MAJOR D'AMICO said if this bill passes he was not sure they could
aid federal officers with a valid federal warrant to make an
arrest.
CHAIRMAN HALFORD asked if they had a policy right now of not
helping or transporting federal officers to enforce fisheries law
in the Glacier Bay area.
MAJOR D'AMICO said that is right.
SENATOR TAYLOR said he was only concerned that we don't have our
officers violating our constitution as they go to aid a federal
agent. He asked if their policy was in writing.
MAJOR D'AMICO answered that Commissioner Otte put out a standing
order that this would not occur. Any request for assistance by the
Park Service has to come through his office and he or Colonel Glass
have to approve it except for emergencies.
SENATOR TAYLOR said he was trying to get that policy into writing.
MAJOR D'AMICO responded that's why the Department supports the
intent of the bill, but are concerned about the reciprocity on
backup.
SENATOR MACKIE said the reason he can't support this is because we
receive nine to one assists from them. He has participated in
enough law enforcement activities to know when you are out there by
yourself and need a backup, it's nice to have someone to back you
up. Many of the federal officers are Alaskans, too, and he didn't
want to support something that would put their life in danger.
Number 343
SENATOR PETE KELLY asked if there was a way to separate assaultive
behavior in the bill.
SENATOR TAYLOR said that not one of the examples citted are
impacted by this legislation.
SENATOR MACKIE disagreed.
SENATOR TAYLOR said an officer takes an oath saying he'll support
and defend the Constitution of the United States and the
Constitution of the State of Alaska and will fully discharge his
duties as an Alaskan state trooper to the best of his ability.
He's in violation of his oath when he steps up to enforce a law
that his Supreme Court has told him is an unconstitutional law.
SENATOR MACKIE said he is a lot more comfortable with our Alaska
state troopers handling a situation that has danger to the
perpetrator or to the officers involved. He thought it was bad
public policy to take away our ability to assist.
SENATOR TAYLOR said that's a red herring and the only thing they
are being precluded from doing is assisting federal officers in the
enforcement of subsistence regulations.
SENATOR KELLY said he also needed a level of comfort that is all
this is doing.
SENATOR MACKIE noted the section that says, "The Department of
Public Safety may not enforce or directly assist..." includes a
whole wide range of things. He didn't really didn't see how our
men would be involved if the feds were citing someone for a
subsistence offense. He explained in a lot of situations the
arresting officer finds out a little bit about the person being
arrested. If the officer feels there is a safety concern, although
it is a subsistence offense, he calls for backup. It happens all
the time. He said you can't craft all the circumstances into one
paragraph and just say subsistence when other factors are involved.
SENATOR TAYLOR reiterated that our officers cannot assist in
enforcement of a regulation governing eligibility to engage in
subsistence hunting or fishing. Period.
Number 165
SENATOR GREEN asked what the language on page 1, line 14 "(b) an
employee or law enforcement agent of a state department other than
the Department of Public Safety or other state agency or a police
officer employed by a municipality may not enforce...etc." meant.
She noted they are saying "other than" which exempts all the people
they are trying to include.
SENATOR TAYLOR moved to delete Section (c). There were no
objections and it was so ordered.
SENATOR MACKIE asked why they were using a statute to direct a
municipal law enforcement agency on whom they can and cannot
assist.
SENATOR KELLY told Major D'Amico that he didn't think his fears
were justified. He didn't see how he would be prohibited from
backing up a federal officer.
MAJOR D'AMICO answered on page 1, line 8 and 9 it says, "the
Department of Public Safety cannot enforce or directly assist the
enforcement of a federal statute or regulation governing
eligibility to engage in hunting or fishing in the state if the
statute or regulation cannot be enacted by the state or regulations
could not be adopted by the state department or agency because the
statute or regulation violates either the constitution of the State
of Alaska or the Constitution of the United States." As an
example, if someone came to Hoonah who did not qualify under
federal law to participate in a hunt and illegally took some deer,
then they went back to their home and the federal officer found out
who that person was and was prepared to issue a citation. If
during the computer records check, he discovered this person had
exhibited compulsive behavior in the past toward law enforcement
officers, he thought the trooper would be precluded under this
section from going along and providing that backup service, because
at this point the only violation was a federal regulation
pertaining to subsistence hunting. He thought the danger here was
if we don't provide that service, when we need that service, it
won't be available for us.
TAPE 99-15, SIDE A
Number 001
MAJOR D'AMICO said in Glacier Bay that under current law they can
still provide backup to prevent violence, but they will not help
enforce federal fishery laws.
SENATOR TAYLOR said that many are confused that they won't help
enforce federal fishery laws in Glacier Bay, but are upset if his
legislation precludes him from doing exactly the same thing on
federal subsistence laws.
SENATOR PARNELL explained the difference under their current
policy, if there was some danger of assault, they would be able to
assist the officers.
CHAIRMAN HALFORD noted that this wasn't even the entire subsistence
law, because there are a lot of areas where the state and federal
subsistence laws are consistent. It only refers to the
qualification differential based on the location of residence, the
only provision that has been found unconstitutional by our Supreme
Court.
SENATOR MACKIE asked Senator Taylor if he would consider adding
language like "unless it involved the threat of life or safety to
an officer."
MAJOR D'AMICO responded that he thought if it would allow them to
provide backup service, the Department could support it.
CHAIRMAN HALFORD said he wanted the feds to pay the bill for
stepping all over our constitution.
SENATOR MACKIE said he didn't disagree with that, but he feels
strongly about the backup provision. He said he has a lot more
confidence in our state troopers for handling these kinds of
situations than having federal officers or armed park rangers.
SENATOR TAYLOR said he would try to find some language to that
effect.
CHAIRMAN HALFORD suggested adding, "Unless the assistance is only
provided in an immediate case where no alternative backup is
available at any cost." He thought it would cover the rural
situation.
SENATOR PARNELL said they could add language on page 1, line 8 that
says "notwithstanding AS 18.65.090 and except in the case of threat
of imminent physical injury, the Department of Public Safety..."
CHAIRMAN HALFORD announced they would hold the bill for further
work.
SJR 13-AK NATIVE ON PACIFIC SALMON COMMISSION
CHAIRMAN HALFORD announced SJR 13 to be up for consideration.
SENATOR WARD, sponsor, explained that as an Athabascan Native he
had never voted to give up rights. Mr. Mike Williams brought it to
his attention that he has never known of any Alaska Native who has
been involved in a treaty. There has been a lot of talk about
"have Alaska natives at the table," but when the time comes to
select the voting people who are going to represent the State of
Alaska, they are certainly not Alaska natives, and appear to be
bureaucrats at first glance and are special interests.
SENATOR WARD said he has never disputed his rights under the
Constitution, but when people aren't even invited to the table to
sit down in a bargaining agreement, like the Pacific Salmon Treaty
that is going to affect their life, he didn't think that was right.
MR. EDDIE BURKE, Aide to Representative Jerry Sanders, said a very
interesting statement was given to the House Resources Committee.
Mr. Dick Hoffman, President, Alaska Troller Association, said that
there wasn't the caliber of Alaska Native to sit on this Board.
SENATOR MACKIE asked what that private conversation had with the
bill.
SENATOR WARD said he thought it described a mind-set against having
the people who actually consume the fish at the bargaining table.
They have a position on it before the people who catch it and sell
it and they are not at the table.
SENATOR MACKIE said he didn't necessarily disagree with him,
especially regarding the U.S./Canada Treaty.
SENATOR MACKIE said he thought that Commission was representing the
rights of all Alaskans, commercial, subsistence, white, and native
and he asked for an example of where the people on the Commission
are not doing there job. He also asked for an example where
natives are being disadvantaged in the process.
SENATOR WARD answered since they are closed door meetings, he
couldn't say. He wanted an Alaskan Native added to it.
SENATOR MACKIE asked how they added another commissioner when the
make up is set by the U.S. Government.
SENATOR WARD said that according to the rules, Canada would get one
more seat also.
SENATOR MACKIE asked where Alaska Natives have been disadvantaged
by the Commission that represents Alaska. He said he fails to see
where this is needed, because he feels that all Alaskans are being
represented.
SENATOR WARD replied if an Alaska Native had been representing
subsistence on this Commission, it would have been resolved a long
time ago.
Number 420
SENATOR KELLY said he had a fundamental problem with this
legislation, because the people of Alaska are already represented.
If you add an Alaskan native, you are beginning to divide things
racially. Natives own most of the private land in Alaska and their
corporations have advantages far above anyone else's corporation.
SENATOR WARD said he thought Alaska Natives should have a part of
a treaty process that will affect them for the next hundred years.
SENATOR MACKIE explained that the reason the natives in Washington
state have a seat at the table is because of the treaties that
involve the tribes with allocations.
MR. MYLES CONWAY, Assistant Attorney General, added that the makeup
of the Commission is set by federal statute. If the resolution
goes forward, it should be directed to the Congress.
SENATOR WARD responded that our congressional delegation told him
that the request needs to come through the administration to them,
because that's the way the original treaty was set up.
MR. DAVID BEDFORD, Executive Director, Southeast Alaska Seiners,
read Mr. Jim Bacon's testimony. Mr. Bacon is the co-chair of the
Northern Panel and is a seiner in Southeast. The following is part
of his letter: "I have served on the Northern Panel U.S. Section of
the Pacific Salmon Commission since 1991. I currently serve as the
co-chairman of that body.
The Pacific Salmon Commission was created by the Pacific Salmon
Treaty. The United State and Canada struggled through 15 years of
difficult negotiations to produce the existing treaty. To add
another commissioner to the Pacific Salmon Commission would require
renegotiating provisions of the Treaty and opening contentious
lengthy discussion with no certainty of success.
However, I would council against pursuing SJR 13 not merely because
its success is uncertain, but because we do not need it. Alaska's
delegation to the Treaty fights diligently and, for the most part,
successfully, on behalf of all Alaskans, native and non-native.
The original treaty set management regimes for fisheries that
impact salmon stocks that spawn in one nation and travel into the
other nation's waters.
The Commission is designed to review current arrangements and
renegotiate expired annexes or management agreements. The Alaskan
North Panel (there is a Canadian Northern Panel, as well) is made
up of representatives from the Alaska Native Brotherhood, the
recreational fishing community, the commercial gear groups, and
fisheries managers from Alaska Department of Fish and Game.
We discuss the issues relevant to the negotiations and work toward
a consensus to present to the Alaska Commissioner and alternate
commissioner who act as our chief negotiators in the discussions
with Canada and the Southern United States. Alaska's greatest
strength has been our ability to work together..."
SENATOR MACKIE interrupted to ask if Mr. Andy Ebono was on our
Northern Panel serving native interests.
CHAIRMAN HALFORD indicated he was and noted that it was just an
advisory panel.
MR. BEDFORD added that the Panel drives the issues as far as they
can get them, then the Commission takes them "for the final lap."
"with all affected interests and the State of Alaska to protect
Alaska's interests. While other delegations insist on circling the
wagons and shooting inward, Alaskans consistently work together to
serve all of our interests.
Alaskan fisheries of relevance to the Treaty are the Southeast
Alaska Chinook Fishery, both recreational and personal, the
District 104 purse seine fishery (Noise Island Fishery), the
District 101 gillnet(Tree Point) Fishery, and the Trans Boundary
River Fisheries of the Taku and Stikine Rivers. The Commission
also shares information about the Alsek River fishery. A separate
body deals with Yukon River issues.
The Pacific Salmon Treaty does not deal with any subsistence
fisheries in Alaskan waters. Our subsistence fisheries are
primarily in fresh water and intertidal marine waters near the
terminal areas and, therefore, do not fit the criteria for Treaty
or Commission involvement. Thus the decisions of the Pacific
Salmon Commission do not affect subsistence harvests. The fishery
of greatest importance to my fleet (I am a purse seiner) is the
Noise Island fishery. Tlingit and Haida peoples of the west coast
of Prince of Wales pioneered that fishery and served the first
cannery built in Alaska in the late eighteen hundreds. To this day
there is no distinction between native and non-native fishermen's
interests with respect to negotiations with Canada. Our interest
is the same, to protect Alaska's right to harvest salmon in the
sovereign waters of Alaska. I am concerned with any approach which
would either directly or indirectly divide or dilute Alaska's
message or provide our adversaries with the ability to exploit
potential perceived political differences. As I stated earlier,
our unity is our strength. I believe that the current makeup of
the Northern Panel, along with the Alaskan Commissioners serve all
of Alaskan's interests well. I would urge the committee to not
pass SJR 13."
MR. JEV SHELTON, Southeast Alaska Gillnetter, said he is also
Alaska's alternate commissioner on the Pacific Salmon Commission.
He has been involved in the Pacific Salmon Treaty since 1974. He
endorsed everything in Mr. Bacon's statement. He said that native
fishermen are integral to all the fisheries in Southeast Alaska.
They are leaders in the industry and are well respected. There is
nothing that excludes them implicitly or explicitly. The record
will show that they have been very much involved in the Treaty
issues.
Right now would be a bad time to insert this kind of an issue in
front of the federal government. Alaska needs support and help on
treaty related issues; it doesn't need anything that would indicate
a split that might be exploited. The suggestion that this could be
divided along subsistence lines is bad and the suggestion that it
be divided along racial lines is hugely unfortunate. Adding
members would take a lot of maneuvering to even accomplish. Each
country has four commissioners and each country decides its own
makeup.
MR. SHELTON said he had dealt with many native fishermen and no one
had expressed any dissatisfaction about the way their interests are
being represented in this. He reiterated that subsistence is not
an issue within the Treaty. How fish are allocated is up to the
Board of Fisheries. The Pacific Salmon Treaty is concerned most
with the Dixon Entrance and the troll fishery along the outer
coast.
TAPE 15, SIDE B
Number 590
The streams up by Yakutat are completely out of bounds as far as
the Canadians are concerned and never enter into discussions within
the Treaty. The job of the Alaska delegation is to get the best
possible allocation for Alaska and then the issue remains to be
dealt with internally.
SENATOR MACKIE asked who our four representatives are.
MR. SHELTON said Dave Benton, Jim Pitman (non-voting federal
representative), Curt Smitch (Advisor to Governor Lock),
representing both Washington and Oregon, and Ron Allen who
represents the 24 treaty tribes in Washington and Oregon.
SENATOR MACKIE noted that adding another Alaskan would be two from
Alaska and only one from Washington and Oregon and one from the
federal government.
CHAIRMAN HALFORD adjourned the meeting at 5:00 p.m.
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